[nroberts]

Stiglar sayeth:

Well thankyou for taking time out to actually listening to a band before creating a huge generalised arrogant statement about them...

Ouch....I just GOTTA say something to THAT.

IMHO it is neither arrogant nor generalized to point out that a band is butchering lyrics even if I haven't heard them before. When you have a band that takes a main line out of a song, loops it repeatedly, adds stuff like, "When I was a youth I used to burn cali weed in a Rizla a Rizla a Rizla a Rizla," and then calls it by the same name it is pretty obvious what was done.

I did make the assumption that the offenders were a rap group since it is done so often in that genre. I still don't think it makes it any better that they are "techno dance", another genre I find has little redeeming qualities (in fact, unlike rap, I don't think there is any song I have heard from that genre that I find worthwile at all). Frankly I don't see how the genre or quality of performance makes any difference.

I may be arrogant, I might even be generalistic, but I think in this case you are way off base. I don't have to hear the band to read their lyrics, and anyone who reads their lyrics can see the obvious: that they butchered someone else's song. I do get rather worked up when I see this happen. I hear good musicians like The Police, Lynda Ronstadt, Queen, and now Arthur Brown abused by hacks like Vanilla Ice, various rap groups, and now Prodigy and it just pisses me off. It's an insult to my ears and my intelligence.

And they are hacks, cause when you take someone else's song, chop it up and throw something stupid in like, "When I was a youth I used to burn cali weed in a Rizla a Rizla a Rizla a Rizla," (That is really the ONLY thing they added; I wonder if they even wrote it...) package it up and call it your own...you are a hack; that is the very definition of hackery. It isn't generalistic or arrogant to call a horse a horse. I just can't bring myself to respect a band that does that.

In the end, when I listened to the song in question it was far worse than I imagined, but it wouldn't have mattered if I loved the hell out of it. They butchered the guys lyrics and this can be obviously seen and read. In fact they did even worse when I actually listened to it...they quite literally chopped up the song and looped it...the original recording... :wutblau:

It also isn't even close to the same as blues. Blues is not a butchery or bastardization of some other person's music. Blues is an evolution of music with roots in slave hyms and gospel. Blues is music...this shit Prodigy did with Fire doesn't qualify as such.

Note: anyone reading this and is lost can go here
http://www.guitars101.com/vb/showthread.php?t=30217&page=2&pp=10

 

[Stiglar]

Stiglar sayeth:


Ouch....I just GOTTA say something to THAT.

IMHO it is neither arrogant nor generalized to point out that a band is butchering lyrics even if I haven't heard them before. When you have a band that takes a main line out of a song, loops it repeatedly, adds stuff like, "When I was a youth I used to burn cali weed in a Rizla a Rizla a Rizla a Rizla," and then calls it by the same name it is pretty obvious what was done.

I did make the assumption that the offenders were a rap group since it is done so often in that genre. I still don't think it makes it any better that they are "techno dance", another genre I find has little redeeming qualities (in fact, unlike rap, I don't think there is any song I have heard from that genre that I find worthwile at all). Frankly I don't see how the genre or quality of performance makes any difference.

I may be arrogant, I might even be generalistic, but I think in this case you are way off base. I don't have to hear the band to read their lyrics, and anyone who reads their lyrics can see the obvious: that they butchered someone else's song. I do get rather worked up when I see this happen. I hear good musicians like The Police, Lynda Ronstadt, Queen, and now Arthur Brown abused by hacks like Vanilla Ice, various rap groups, and now Prodigy and it just pisses me off. It's an insult to my ears and my intelligence

And they are hacks, cause when you take someone else's song, chop it up and throw something stupid in like, "When I was a youth I used to burn cali weed in a Rizla a Rizla a Rizla a Rizla," (That is really the ONLY thing they added; I wonder if they even wrote it...) package it up and call it your own...you are a hack; that is the very definition of hackery. It isn't generalistic or arrogant to call a horse a horse. I just can't bring myself to respect a band that does that.

In the end, when I listened to the song in question it was far worse than I imagined, but it wouldn't have mattered if I loved the hell out of it. They butchered the guys lyrics and this can be obviously seen and read. In fact they did even worse when I actually listened to it...they quite literally chopped up the song and looped it...the original recording... :wutblau:

It also isn't even close to the same as blues. Blues is not a butchery or bastardization of some other person's music. Blues is an evolution of music with roots in slave hyms and gospel. Blues is music...this shit Prodigy did with Fire doesn't qualify as such.

Note: anyone reading this and is lost can go here
http://www.guitars101.com/vb/showthread.php?t=30217&page=2&pp=10

I don't have a problem with you disliking the lyrics , but i fail to see how it's obvious that they've butchered an entire SONG just from a set of words on a page and what genre you were told they were done by .

I at one stage thought i would hate every rap song ever , but although it took me along time to admit i have heard tunes and songs that have caught my ear and i have enjoyed . and i realised i myself was being quite immature at the time .. as i would disregard pretty much all music from that genre ..

And who are you to say that it's not music and that they are hacks ? your showing your age my friend . this is the music of today whether you like it or not ..back in the 1950's rock and roll was devil music and rock n rollers had "no talent" and were seen as nobodys , how is this any different ? because it's not your generation of music ? I don't particuarly like rap and dance but i'm not going to go round saying they're all hacks frankly because who knows the direction it's goign to go in the future . music is everywhere and should be embraced not shot down by people who don't agree with it .. . how many thousands of inovators in the history of music have been seen as hacks and nobodys in history and seen as crazy ? .. .stravinskys rite of spring caused a riot .. he was a musical genious and what he wrote was seen as unmusical .. even beethoven , some of mozart , frank zappa , even some of steve vais stuff !

the blues has been passed on from generation to generation , robert johnson is credited for playing and writing dust my broom and people aren't even sure he wrote it ! ... those songs are for everyone to play and play their own way .. and i think all music should be like that .. passed down and revamped like folk music .. it's what makes us grow .

again ! .. all i ask is to be open minded and not make harsh generalisations .

 

[Mondy]

I'll agree with Stiglar there. To be open-minded to the music. I don't know how you can win at all. If you cover a song exactly like the original, then you're condemned for not doing anything different. If you do change it, you're condemned because it sounds nothing like the original.

However, nroberts, using your broad generalisation of people being hacks, then you would probably be placing a whole lot of songs and artists under that huge umbrella. Many artists will admit they got the idea for the bridge part of the song from another, and the chorus from another song. It's just natural. It's called influences.

Anyway, I can see this thread going nowhere fast, but please, please, please, wake up and open your mind to the music. You will be missing out on so much.

As for The Prodigy, they are a great band who do things really well. I do like them, and they've done some great stuff. I'd call them talented myself, not hacks !

:thumb:

 

[wahwah]

I wanna know where you get 'Fire' and 'Firestarter' sounding at all alike...is it that 2 seconds at the beginning before it starts? :wtf:

 

[Mondy]

I don't think he is wahwah. He's comparing 'Fire' by Arthur Brown with 'Fire' (not Firestarter) by The Prodigy, that he stumbled across when he searched for Arthur Brown's lyrics.

He then kicked up this whole rant about sucky ass rap bands...

:dunno:

Like I say, this thread is destined to go nowhere fast !

:lol:

 

[serpant]

I dissmiss no music whatsoever, at the end of the day what is important is it makes people happy, sad, dance, nod there head or tap there feet, its all about an emotion that the music stirs inside you, no mater what genre all music has its place,

 

[Goport]

I like the prodigy for their early work. Music for the Jilted Generation was a great LP imo, but it was a dance lp and all vocals were sampled. I agree to some extent that sampling music is not always a creative process but I thought the prodigy did it with an earthy, err vibrant sort of in your face style and it worked for me. Fat of the land was the first LP where one of the members actually did some vocals and it was very well put together. it has dated badly I guess but it was surprisingly heavy and fresh at the time, well at least here in the uk.

It is also important to remember that not all music travels well. Bands that were/are popular over here often bombed in america (Stone Roses for example) and Bands like Journey and Night Ranger are/were hardly uk chart successes over here. It is purely a cultural issue I guess, some new ideas are snapped up and others are ignored.

On the issue of sampling, I see it as a logical progresion of music because technology makes it so easy to achieve. Computing technology has affected practically every aspect of life in general, including art. It all comes down to whether you like the results or not. I like(d) the prodigy because I thought they did what they did very well, whereas others don't.

As for arrogant generalisations, I am guilty of that on a regular basis :lol: For Example, everytime I hear 50cent, I know I am not going to enjoy it - regardless of how good the song may be. But I am trying to be more open minded

 

[nroberts]

However, nroberts, using your broad generalisation of people being hacks, then you would probably be placing a whole lot of songs and artists under that huge umbrella. Many artists will admit they got the idea for the bridge part of the song from another, and the chorus from another song. It's just natural. It's called influences.

It's also totally different. Getting your influences from someone and making something new is great, that is how music is created. Actually, it is how everything is created, not just music or art.

However, that isn't what they did. They actually chopped out a chunk of another person's music and looped it over and over to make their 'song'.

For comparison:
http://www.lyricsdepot.com/prodigy/fire.html
http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/the_crazy_world_of_arthur_brown/fire.html

Saying Fire rocks and covering it is one thing (although be prepaired to be called a butcher if your version sucks), saying Arthur Brown was innovative and using some of his techniques in your own stuff in one thing, chopping up the song and using it as a loop is another, using someone's catchy bass line for your suck ass rap is another...

I admire some rap artists even though I generally hate the genre. But when I recognize the background as another song it really bugs the hell out of me. Same in this case. In my opinion that isn't arrogant or generalistic...I guess opinions differ.

 

[Mondy]

Like I say, this thread is destined to go nowhere fast. :thumb:

You've got some strong opinions there, and that's all they are, just opinions, not facts. Others people have got different opinions. You've got to learn to respect other people's opinions as well.

:dunno:

So we *could* debate this 'til the cows come home. But I feel that all you care about is your opinion being right and everyone else's being wrong, so I feel it pointless to debate as you're not being receptive to anyone else's comments, and so it would likely end up with you getting pretty heated before anything was solved.

So I'll just sit and watch this one out, if you please...

:thumb:

 

[nroberts]

You've got to learn to respect other people's opinions as well.

I don't think I ever did otherwise; if I stepped on someone's opinion I'm sorry, sometimes I get agressive. Everything seemed cool until I was called arrogant. Now I'm feeling defensive. It probably wasn't meant that way, but there you go...

I agree this is going nowhere, so let's quit before things get worse. I said all I can. I don't think any of it was arrogant or generalistic, but whatever.

 

[Naifuzan]

So, prodigy sampled an old song. Techno and rap guys do it all the time, and as long as some people like to listen to it, why not?
But yeah, I don't find it to be very good or enriching most of the time neither. But, to each his own.