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Discussion Starter #1
dont know where this goes...so move it as you please(to the mods!!!!)

i'm just about to punch a whole through the next person who argues with me about this. not just that, but i will pull out their entire guts, tie em around their head and hang them from the cn tower for 2 days, before i take em to the pyramids and throw em from the top of the pyramids and let em roll off! :cussing:

i mean, i've heard this from just about everyone. metal guitarists who are extremly technical lack soul, and emotions. and people who play blues or soft rock, and really slow stuff are over flowing with soul, and have soul and emotions oozing out of their nose. and likewise, every metal/speed/fast guitarist sucks coz of that fact..or as they believe 'fact'

what the hell is up with that?! if a guitarist didnt have any emotions, then he/she/it wouldnt even play a guitar. i'm sorry, but if a solo consists of you bending on one string, and 1 fret, and you using lots of WAH and Reverb to make it look epically sad, that is not emotion! i dont care how much you say, its not emotion. and some people who say that guitarists like steve vai have soul(when they look at him) but when they hear him, they say he lacks soul. he makes funny faces, and thus he has 'soul'....whow, i guess i need to wear a happy face mask and i'll have soul!!!! YEAH!

i wont be surprised if guitarists like yngwie malmsteen slows down everything he plays, people would say he has emotions. i mean, not too long ago, i was at this show. this guy was playing the keys. it was beethoven's 'moonlight sonata'. when he was going at it, EVERYONE in the audince(who wasn't into metal. just old hags and their families) was saying that the pianist/syths guy had lots of soul. and then the guitarist comes in. he plays the EXACT same thing with the same speed, and he gets shot at saying he sucks and lacks emotion....and he wasnt sloppy. he didnt make any mistakes. he was on key, and was doing everything perfectly fine. and i actually really liked it.


i'm sorry, but do you guys see soemthing wrong with this picture? where do you stand? and if you think you know what soul and emotion is all about....do explain!

thanks for reading my rant. now rant away!
 

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For what its worth...here's my two cents...

This is quite a touchy topic. I completely understand where you're coming from; and what you're trying to say here. I feel compelled to remind everyone that there is a distinct difference between playing with emotion and playing with soul. Reguardless of my personal preferences, or what you think. Everything is subjective to one's point of view. That's the way it is with politics, ethics, spirituality, music, religion, you name it...
In reference to your frustrations, the cliche' comparison is always between a technical virtuoso, and a old-school bluesman. For the sake of staying away from more of the common names used in comparison; Lets take Glen Tipton (Judas Priest) and T-Bone Walker. I have no intentions, nor will I even begin to try and make an effort to minimize their individual talent and contributions to music. Reguardless of their experiences or accolades as a musician you can't compare any two "real" musicians because, none of them have the exact same influences, or the same intentions or vision as to what he/she personally wants to become as a musician. This is strictly an example to examine what I believe are the differences between soul and emotion.
Webster's defines "emotion" as, "a conscious mental reaction (as anger or fear) subjectively experienced as strong feeling usually directed toward a specific object and typically accompanied by physiological and behavioral changes in the body" That being said...no one can argue the statement that "EVERY great guitarist reguardless of their background or genre has great emotion behind their playing." Music is art, and true musicians express themselves as artists through the music they write and/or perform.
The real debate boils over "soul." From what I've read here in the dictionary, there's three definitons that can apply the basis for two schools of thought over what is defined as playing with soul. The first part that I'll briefly mention here is the spiritual aspect of the soul and music...which I won't dive into here. That's for another discussion thread. This next definition is, "the moral and emotional nature of human beings." That is a logical basis for one school of thought. The other definition of "soul," that constitutes the other side of the fence is, "a strong positive feeling (as of intense sensitivity and emotional fervor) conveyed especially by black American performers."
I can't honestly say weather I favor one side over the other. I haven't given this enough thought. However to the people who argue that "you don't have to play blues or jazz to show soul," I say this. Maybe that's true, but maybe you're wrong. The biggest and strongest arguement from the blues community is that; "you can teach anybody to play all the advanced techniques, but you can't teach them soul....that's something a player goes to discover on their own." Techniques help you express soul, but technique can only take you so far.
Its my personal goal to be able to play with as much technique as I do soul. Its a difficult road...but I feel its the best way for "me" to develop as a player. I hope you good people found this interesting, and worth reading.
 

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Soliloguy, i went through the same thing with some clown at a party i played at a couple weeks ago.. This is guy has been playing guitar for 15+ years but has very little technical ability, i mean the majority of his playing is straight up chord strumming G C D E AM EM etc.. Very easy stuff.

So when i started playing with a couple others we did some old VH tunes, Ice Cream Man, Jamie's Crying, On Fire, Meantsreet, Feel your love etc. After the show we get into this debate about "MY KIND OF MUSIC" so he calls it and how it lacks feel because it's just flash technique. Well let me tell you, as soon as that shit started spewing out of his mouth i wanted to hook the guy. I tried explaining to him and showing him first hand on the guitar certain eddie riffs and how much character , feel, charisma they have but he didnt get it. So how do you explain to somebody that doesn't get it ? It's very hard to explain talent and certain charasmatic things to people who dont have it or dont get it. SO i basically said to him " hey man, you play what you play and i'll play what i play" then i walked away.

Its funny though, it happens alot, the majority of these jokers who say metal,rock, flashy players have no feel are the first ones to have their eyes light up and full attention on the guy who's playing the flash. It's always the guys who can't do the stuff that will cut it up.

Feel can be experienced through different ways though, sometimes a chord progression can give me goosebumps, it's not always about playing leads or bends, don't get me wrong everytime i play classic VH tunes i get goosebumps lol might sound funny but that's called passion for what you play. Anything from VH1 immediately gives me goosebumps.. The beginning chord progression to Diary Of A Madman is another, or the opening chord progression from Led Zeppelin's Achilles Last Stand they're all magic..

I know where you're coming from, the best thing for you to do is stop trying to explain to the dumbfounded idiots because you'll usually never get through to them, it's very aggrivating but there's nothing you can do. Just go on loving what you love and that's that .
 

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Interesting reading, people.

This is one of these topics that will have people really pour their little hearts out. Forget religion and politics, this is the topic that will get G101ers going for ages!

Good read!
 

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Discussion Starter #5
speaking of religion...i'm surprised no one brought in bush, bin ladin and other political guys, like they always do on youtube videos...


but yeah. i dont really understand how people can say that technical players have no emotion when comparing to slow players. i got nothing against slow player. and they could have spend just as much time as the technical guys on whatever they like. but the technical guys, they have spent 1000's of hours on ther solos, riffs, or what not. and to simply call them apthetic kinda contradicts them...i mean, if you're really apathetic to a guitar, then why bother even spending 1000's of hours on it?!

sure, slow playing isnt really something that makes me drool. but really fast stuff kinda bores me as well. something in the middle.and certain songs should be played in a certain way.

granted, saying that players who play slow, as suppose to shred, lack skills that shreders have is also ignorant on our behalf. but to deny stuff that the guitar gods such as vai, malmsteen, halen, satriani and what not, is more ignorant on their behalf.

jelousy? ive heard that tons of times people. people who cant appreciate shreders are just jelous of them, but instead of using that jelousy to learn from them, they rather complain about them

sure, each guitarist that is original(regardless of them playing slow, or sweep the hell out of the neck!), has a thing or two to teach their audience. but if their auidence doesnt wanna learn, its their fault, and they lose out.
 

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I'm basically saying what others have said already.
I would state that you have a broader expression range, if you are skilled technically (pretty obvious).
On the other hand if you have impressive technical abilities it doesn't mean that you have soul or are able to play with emotion.
And music is really all about emotion so it's not hard to figure out what's most important, but again if you can't express your emotions through your fingers using good techinque your not so interesting as a guitar player.

And there's also different types of emotions you can express; sadness, anger, joy, fear. If you know how to express any type of emotions through music you may have soul.

Another thing about death metal I just don't get some of it, I do like melodic death metal but there are bands that the absence of melody is just painful. That type of music is pointless because they just blast the notes at you without any sense of direction or thought. I have not yet met any person that likes ballads and Elton John (as an example) but still likes Rage Metal (whatever the name is). Music can be lots of stuff whether it's based on rhythm or melody but music like that doesn't seem to be based on anything.
Maybe that's the whole point of it, I don't know.
 

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the only time i really give any technical players crap about not having emotion is when it just seems really bland, i don't care how big you open your mouth or how hard you squint your eyes while you're playing repeated sweeps that just make you sweat and not cry...i can't put my finger on it, but you can always tell when a guy is playing from his heart and not from his lesson notes, you just get this chill up your spine when a guy just lets go and lets it all flow into his fingers, and you just want to hit the guy thats pretending...thats how i see it...
 

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its as simple as this, if you get any feeling out of a song in any genre it has emotion, now blues type players give us 1 or 2 types of emotion but by no means is it exclusive to blues now just think how many other emotions there are 1000s, i do understand why some people are called emotionless just take micheal angelo thats just emotionless to ME but for someone else it may make the hairs on their neck stand up and be emotional and it could be i just cant tune into that perticular emotion, ALL music has emotion its just some of us can feel it and others cant, never change the way you play to please others, be what you are play what you like and people will allways feel that from you when they listen to your stuff, they may not like it but so what, are you making music because you love to or just trying to please others, emotion in music simply means it speaks to you and you feel it,
 

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Emotion and Feeling outweigh technical prowess but when you combine the 2 (Satch , Vai,etc), you can take the levels of Emotion and Feeling to levels a less technical player cant reach.
 

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Here's my two cents...
I think if you don't respect Technical & quote en qoute emotional music, you don't have respect for music PERIOD. Emotion is apart of music, no matter what your preference is. I respect both blues & metal because I pay attention to who revolutionized and pushed forth music. Blues is really good, but just because of its pace, that doesn't mean metal is better or blues is better. As long as you take the time to play the music and progress, I respect that and your good in my book. Alot of metal consists of shredding and fast-paced tempos. However, Roy Buchanan is an awesome blues artist and he pretty much applied shredding to blues. They don't use it alot, but Buchanan definatly broke some barriers. To some this up, I think if it pisses you off that much, just realize that music is music. Wether your Ywgnie Malmsteen or Stevie Ray Vaughn, you make good music and fans of that liking will enjoy it. So, i'm not sure where this debate's point really is....But the point i'm making is that, If you don't respect music or good guitar playing from blues to metal, then you shouldn't say anything at all. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. So if someone is bias to a certain genre of music, let them be. Metal is my preference, but I like blues too. Of course, not as much as metal, but I respect it because it came first and it is good music. It doesn't matter if you play fast or slow, if you know how to play the guitar to the extent that you can captivate an audience or draw in fans to your shows, then you know how to play and you should be recognized for that. Emotion is a powerful thing, and every musician has it. Technicality stretches far beyond this argument. Blues involves alot of Technicality as does metal. I really don't know what you want out of this, but I hope now you have a better understanding.
 

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It mildly irritates me also. Most people who say that are just people that are too lazy to practice enough to ever be able to shred, so they set their idols as people more achievable - your David Gilmours and your John Fruciante.

I just can't understand why people like Steve Vai and Paul Gilbert would spend hours a day practicing just to "show off", without having some emotional attachment to the music they're playing.
 

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Eddie van Hendrix said:
I just can't understand why people like Steve Vai and Paul Gilbert would spend hours a day practicing just to "show off", without having some emotional attachment to the music they're playing.
Unfortunately, it seems like alot of people confuse "showing off" with showmanship.:crap:

I like the point that Solioguy made about the guitarist and the keyboard player exchanging the same licks and the guitarist is the one called the wanker. This always bothered me too. For example, you have a legend like Nicolo Paganini who is hailed as one of the greatest violinists of his time and played super fast, but then you have a fast (and excellent) player like Yngwie Malmsteen who plays in a very similar way, but on the electric guitar and he is getting bashed right and left.

I've heard the technique vs. soul thing enough to have transcended the whole thing by now though lol. IMHO, you shouldnt have one without the other and even if you dont use one or the other, you should still have that capacity. If you think technique doesnt belong in the blues, I say go listen to Gary Moore. If you think soul and technique should be seperate, I say go listen to Eric Johnson, Satch, Petrucci, Vai, Paul Gilbert, Marty Friedman, etc.

I try to approach listening to other players in the same way that Hendrix did. No matter what style, genre, or instrument a musician favors, there is ALWAYS something to learn, whether it be technical or something as simple as how a note is sung.

Thats my take on this. (BTW Lets keep this topic intelligent:biggthump)
 

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when I was first learning how to play, I would learn a pattern (pentatonic or maj/min scale position) and go up and down in that position in whatever key my favorite song happend to be at the time (AC DC, Iron Maiden, Fastway etc). I was just trying to figure it all out, the sounds the bends the vibrato. Sometimes it was fast, sometimes slow, bottom line, it had NO soul. Why, well because I was learning, playing exercises. Now, even today, 25 years later I may be watching the boob tube playing over a cool comercial I'm watching, and often times my mind is wandering and there isn't an ounce of soul or emotion, I'm not trying to say anything I'm just playing and enjoying the feeling of physically playing the instrument. Conversely I do write and play over jamtrax and my phrasing may be slow or shred, some string skipping, perhaps some simple double stops but it's all emotion, because I'm just playing what I feel (by definition that's emotion) and I want to "say" something, even if it's just to the four walls in my studio.
technique and emotion are completely disconnected in analysis, they have nothing to do with each other, whether you are proficient, sloppy or whtever, if you are playing (and trying to say someting) then it is with emotion.

Personally I've taken my dog out of this fight a long time ago, I just play and I just listen, psychosemantics give me a headache, if it's good it's good if I don't like it I'm sure someone else does :)
 

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20texas20 said:
Emotion wins.
Absolutely BUT people that saw that death metal and thrash stuff with super speed solos and stuff aren't emotional are idiots IMO. Look at slayer for example, people say that kerry king can't play and has no emotion its just mindless widdling. Well in a way yeah he doesn't know what he's playing but that doesn' mean that he has no emotion in it, its just that instead of a soft loving sort of emotion, he's a really really pi***d of mutha!!

Yeah sure Gilmour/Satch/Hendrix have got a lot of soul and feel, but Kerry King/Zakk Wylde/ANY thrash metal band have emotion to just a really really angry emotion.

It really annoys me when they say that because they don't know what they're doing or they're showing off that there is no emotion!!
 

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i have never really associated playing fast as being necessarily "skilled" ... actually, i've seen some extremely talented (and underrated) guitar players make the most out of the least notes ... bb king, john fogerty, neil young etc.

i guess "emotion" can vary, from one moment to the next ... if you want depression then slow blues hits that particular emotion ... if your emotions dictate giving someone the beating of a lifetime, then the speedy stuff comes in handy:smirk:
 

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Well, Im not much of a shredder - in fact Im not a shredder at all. I consider myself to be more of a bluesy player, and have never really had an interest in shredding mostly because I have really fat fingers and I tend to start tripping over my own fingers as the speed increases! lol But in defense of the "emotional" side of playing I can say this: Just because you know the blues scales, that dosent mean you can play the blues with feeling. Playing with feeling is ANOTHER skill that is learned after many hours of playing and practicing just as is shredding. I know one reason I like the blues and playing with emotional feel so much is that I seem to have the stuff kinda "built in" so to speak, and when I play it I feel completely detached relaxed... but thats another topic I guess. :)

Rj
 

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Discussion Starter #18
dachokie said:
i have never really associated playing fast as being necessarily "skilled" ... actually, i've seen some extremely talented (and underrated) guitar players make the most out of the least notes ... bb king, john fogerty, neil young etc.


its funny you should mention neil young. my firend and I constantly get into these fist fighting debates about emotions vs. technicality. in his defence, he thinks guitarists like yngwei malmsteen, alexi laiho, zakk wylde suck coz they are too technical and emotionless. and at the same time, guitarists like neil young rule coz they strum chords over and over again and play their stuff slow...

to defend my guitar gods, i saw that malmsteen plays neo-classical music. to say he lacks emotion is to say beethoven/mozart do the same. as for neil young being 'superiour' then i think that if a noob who's been playing for about 2 months and practicing playing 2 chords, the Am7 and A+, and plays them over and over again...i highly doubt that if neil young strikes the same chord(just once) you'd be able to tell the difference. not saying that neil young sucks(i do respect him for who he is), but it pisses me off when guitarists that play slow are praised and shredders are frowned upon.

oh, and another thing that pisses me off is if guitarists use a LOT of pedals. i wont mind so much if you use reverb/volume/distortion pedals in every solo, but to use all sorts other pedals like wah/delay. reason being, if you're a slow guitarist, and use wah/delay, you will make your guitar sound like its crying. big deal, you use a pedal to make yourself sound better than what you can normally play without a pedal



i can see me getting flamed for this :nod:
 

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Soliloquy said:
its funny you should mention neil young. my firend and I constantly get into these fist fighting debates about emotions vs. technicality. in his defence, he thinks guitarists like yngwei malmsteen, alexi laiho, zakk wylde suck coz they are too technical and emotionless. and at the same time, guitarists like neil young rule coz they strum chords over and over again and play their stuff slow...

to defend my guitar gods, i saw that malmsteen plays neo-classical music. to say he lacks emotion is to say beethoven/mozart do the same. as for neil young being 'superiour' then i think that if a noob who's been playing for about 2 months and practicing playing 2 chords, the Am7 and A+, and plays them over and over again...i highly doubt that if neil young strikes the same chord(just once) you'd be able to tell the difference. not saying that neil young sucks(i do respect him for who he is), but it pisses me off when guitarists that play slow are praised and shredders are frowned upon.

oh, and another thing that pisses me off is if guitarists use a LOT of pedals. i wont mind so much if you use reverb/volume/distortion pedals in every solo, but to use all sorts other pedals like wah/delay. reason being, if you're a slow guitarist, and use wah/delay, you will make your guitar sound like its crying. big deal, you use a pedal to make yourself sound better than what you can normally play without a pedal



i can see me getting flamed for this :nod:
Well not from me I agree, people that use the wah to cover up their playing are the ones that WANT to be able to play fast for a particular section or whatever but cant IMO.
 
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